“L&D Express” podcast hosted by Bert Cherian with guest Michael Fernandes
Bert: Hello, everybody. This is Bert Cherian from the L&D Express show. I am delighted to have a dear friend of mine, Michael Fernandes on the show. Michael, welcome to the show.
Michael: Thank you, Bert. It‘s a privilege to be here.
Bert: Thank you so much. So I’ve got a bunch of questions and this is a mini podcast, which means I fire questions fast and you answer fast. Is that a deal?
Michael: All right.
Bert: Okay, so as a Learning and OD consultant, you’ve been in touch with such a wide cross-section of clients. What are some of the patterns and learnings that you’ve observed? What are some of the most common ‘asks’ coming across the sectors? Anything you’d like to share on that?
Michael: Yeah, sure. I think the first thing that hits us, is in the current environment there’s so much of digital or virtual learning. The in-person sessions are really very few and far between, and a corollary of this is a larger number of clients of corporates are tying up with LinkedIn, Skillsoft, etc, and offering digital learning.
A second feature that we see is, particularly in the IT sector, there’s an increasing trend to offering employees a developmental budget and saying, here’s your budget for development, you can spend this the way you’d like to. And employees are free to go and sign up for whatever learning program they wish to, complete it, get the certification, and then claim their reimbursement.
Bert: Got it.
Michael: Also, using artificial intelligence to enable employees to identify their learning gaps and point them to relevant learning content is just about breaking into the scene and making its presence felt.
So this is very cutting edge. I think lastly, what we see is – across the board – a renewed interest in skilling up managers and leaders and sharpening them to be ever more effective in engaging and leading people to enable their potential.
Bert: Thank you. Now a completely different question. You’ve also been involved in succession planning in organizations. Given the high level of attrition that’s going on, what are some of the best practices for effectively managing succession planning, anything you would like to share on that?
Michael: Yeah, sure. I think a big change that’s coming in is a reduction in secrecy and the process becoming more transparent.
So there’s an increasing trend to telling identified successors more overtly that “You’re on the list and if all goes well, you know, we’re interested in you. This is your future trajectory.” The second trend in succession planning, a best practice, is to dovetail career plans with succession plans.
Thus far, they were, more often than not, separate entities, but weaving it together makes a lot more sense and reassures the identified successor that, “Yes the organization is committed to my development, and here are the goodies coming along.”
Another trend, Bert, is something called “perpetual beta” in succession planning, meaning that there’s a perpetual state of readiness that some of the forward-looking organizations are maintaining in terms of a slate of pre-selected and developed candidates ready to fill critical vacancies as and when an occasion arises. Now, this is a very dynamic scenario with significant implementation challenges, but some corporations are way ahead of the game.
And lastly, of course, an ‘okay’ succession plan that is well executed is far superior to a more sophisticated plan that remains on Excel or PowerPoint.
Bert: I like that. By the way, you mentioned that term “perpetual beta”. I believe that first came out of Google because their Gmail was in perpetual beta for 10 years.
That’s where the word actually came from.
Michael: That’s fascinating.
Bert: Let me try another question with you. Identifying high potential employees is crucial and you’ve done this across countries now.
What are the challenges and opportunities that you have encountered in this process?
Michael: I think identifying high-potential talent is largely something without a set criteria. It’s ambiguous, it’s amorphous, it’s prone to misinterpretation, and it gets into political slugfests. So, I think having clarity, and sharing the rationale for selection with key stakeholders, is fundamental to a successful intervention.
I’ve been in an organization where my CHRO insisted that I, as Head of
Talent, prepare a white paper detailing the rationale of the selection process, including justifying the psychometric tool of an external partner. So I think that’s the first thing.
The second is, I think there’s an unhealthy amount of secrecy as to who’s in and out, and what is the rationale. People who are left out can often experience a dip in motivation. Sometimes it leads to attrition and there’s no way to handle it except by being more open and reassuring them that they too are important for the organization.
The third thing that we see, and this is very interesting, is there is a tendency in many, many companies to outsource the leadership development of high pots.
But you can’t really outsource leadership development. Your leaders represent who you are. They represent and carry your values and carry your heart. They create the culture that you stand for. You can outsource domain upskilling, but you can never outsource leadership development.
So there’s a great need for the Execom to really step up to the front on this, and own this, and prove their commitment by making time and making themselves available to participants in the program.
And the last challenge, which is across industry, not just in high-potential leadership development, is that leadership development programs are often events.
There’s a schedule and the events happen and there are very distinguished faculty who come in and take their courses. There are projects for hands-on experience and then it’s over. There is no measurement to say, is this learning being applied to build a skill? Is this learning leading to a change? Is the needle moving in terms of behavior? This is a fundamental and huge gap.
Bert: I’m afraid its time for a completely different question. I know that you spent a lot of time developing a career development framework. You have 8 different dimensions there. You mentioned one area that I found particularly interesting, which is that of commitment.
Now in today’s workplace, commitment seems to have evaporated. It’s diminishing both for employees and employers. How can we reinstate the sense of commitment in such an environment? Difficult question, but take a shot.
Michael: Well, it’s a huge question and the answer would be huge, but this is your “express” program, I think! So let me say that there are 3 ways of looking at this. The first is that for employees to be committed we need their leaders to be committed. You can’t be committed if your leader is uncommitted, disengaged, etc. So, that’s the first level.
The second level is that the employee will be committed if he or she is within an atmosphere where the basic corporate values flourish. What do I mean by that? Basic human values of openness, trust, transparency, kindness, respect. These need to be lived out, not just spoken out for an employee to be committed and engaged to his or her work and the organization.
And, thirdly, it’s absolutely important that the climate within the organization is, specifically, empowering. Not one where the manager feels bound to obey the commands of the senior manager or the President or Vice president, but a more encouraging, free, inclusive culture does a great deal to build commitment.
Bert: Thank you so much for that. My last and final question to you is, is there a book that you would recommend that you’re currently reading that you have found particularly insightful? Anything you want to share on that?
Michael: I’ve been reading ‘The Future Leader’ by Jacob Morgan, about the nine skills and mindsets to succeed in the next decade. He interviewed over 140 CEOs and surveyed over 14,000 employees to identify and understand the future leadership skills required for this decade that we’re in. It’s a fascinating book.
Bert: Wow. Well, Michael, thank you so much for being on the show. You articulated some really good points. So thank you for that. I really appreciate it.
Michael: Thank you for including me, Bert.
Bert: All the best. Thank you so much.
Speakers – brief bio
Bert Cherian is the CEO of META RESULTS, as well as an Executive Coach, and a Leadership Development expert who has conducted transformative 
programs for esteemed companies such as IBM, Cognizant, Logica, and FIS, impacting thousands of professionals globally. Additionally, he is a motivational speaker and author, having published five books on personal and organizational transformation using ontology and coaching principles. Passionate about building
leaders, Bert is committed to achieving a 3X ROI for clients while empowering individuals to succeed. He is also the founder and host of the “L&D Express” podcast, for which Michael R. Fernandes was a guest in September 2024.
Michael R. Fernandes is a Learning, OD and Talent leader who focuses on Leadership Assessment, Leadership Development and Coaching. He is 
currently an independent consultant at Verity Consulting (India). After an MBA in HR from XLRI Jamshedpur, Michael has 20+ years’ experience in consulting firms such as EY, PwC Consulting, and IBM Global BCS. His experience includes practice development and business development with international (cross-cultural) experience. In industry roles, he has led Leadership
Development, Talent Management, Employee Engagement and OD at the corporate level. He is a Gallup-certified Strengths-based Coach who enjoys facilitating workshops and enabling people development.